i wonder why so much ruckus was there on a scene from a popular bollywood movie where on the door of men’s toilet there was a picture of a starlet & below that there were the popular proverb (apna haath jagannath) meaning self reliance
there it was used as a slang for masturbation
in india there is a state called orissa & lord jagganath (vishnu ) is the deity of that state
this slang was taken as an insult to lord when it was obvious that there was nothing like that
so i wonder why we are so humor less
will laugh at others but not at ourselves
lord krishna a famous hindu deity was a ladies man having a haram full of wives & umpteen girl friends(married & single) dancing at night
this is supposed to be divine
while the poor girls enjoying a drink in the comfort of a pub are thrashed
why the same treatment is not given to men?
why indra the king of gods is worshiped & is supposed to bring rain very important for our agricultural economy
while he used to enjoy his drink & had numerous affairs some by deceit & impersonation
in fact he had a couple kam dev & rati in charge of sex in his court
so much for our heritage
are we not being double faced based on convenience?

lord krishna’s son had a live in relationship & used to spend the night in her girl friend’s bedroom
on getting caught the girl’s family held him captive
lord got him freed & got him married with his beloved
the right to choose husband was a fundamental right of girls called swayambar
the hindi name of india is bharatvarsh named after a brave king born out of premarital affair between his parents
yet couples having a stroll on valentine day are harassed
sodomy is rampant
couple sleep on roof tops & fields do copulate with not much privacy yet sex is taboo
why are we so hypocrite
i am not an advocate of free sex but
find it difficult to digest double standards

Shiv, at times it becomes totally unbelievable that such article and comments are coming from a man and that too Indian. But you know what, i like your views. And i think that today, when a woman is independent financially, she should definitely follow the tips that you've mentioned to make her life easier. 'dealing with male ego' part is so true... sigh!

There are already lesbians in india. i've met few of them in my college and office and one of them was a good friend of mine. She was a real fun to be with.

some how i can not under stand the psyche of man homosexuals
i find it to be rough, painful & high risk with no inclination & experience
in india in any relationship man is supposed to wear the pants
i am yet to find a man taking his wife’s surname post marriage myself included
kitchen & household is supposed to be women’s domain
it is difficult for a well placed women to get an understanding partner superior to her
yet she has her physical needs non fulfillment of which can make her frustrated
any affair or dalliance is high risk
i feel masturbation may be far more full filling for man than for women
so going for a lesbian relation can be practical even late in life

i am trying to visualize a situation where a women has such relationship not as her natural inclination must as the next best option

just like masturbation can be instinct based despite the man being natural heterosexual
so may be being lesbian
a matter of alternate channel of fulfillment
there may be bisexual women
all hypothesis with no basis

Well,nothing personal my friend !! But this is very atrocious post from you.Well, everyone is free to express his/her view..That’s called viewpoint..But what you have expressed is here is total shit !!A request :Take my view only as a viewpoint please.I don’t want a personal backlash from you.

At least, I have often seen you giving references of Hindu scriptures which only show how superficial your knowledge is about Hindu religion.

Okay.I have no problem with your campaign for rise of homosexuals and lesbians !Go make all arrangement for their well-being.Arrange TV interviews with so-called foreign experts.Borrow references from Freud’s and other enlightened Western scholars but for God’s sake don’t display your knowledge about Indian scriptures.

I am no qualified scholar but know enough to tell you that what you quote is merely rubbish.They are always far away from truth.

Okay.I hope lord grants you the power to enlarge the community of homosexuals and lesbians.India certainly is now fit for homosexuals and lesbians alone.The normal human beings like us are outdated and fit only for stone age.

It’s age of enlightened souls like you in league with all corrupt and immoral practices and all modern wonders(sorry! for U they are ancient)-homosexuals and lesbians.

India may or may not turn into home of lesbians and homosexuals but I do pray to Lord that your home remains evergreen with lots of homosexuals and lesbians in all the ages.After all, it’s natural to be a homosexual or lesbian !!

You are right Arvind. i cant understand the future lesbians or homosexuals.

@Maya

May be my approach is apparently personal but the whole response only substantiates his wish-the rise of homosexuals and lesbians.In other words,it’s the context and the purpose that makes my comment devoid of personal tone !! Charity begins at home !! Why not he turns his home into breeding spot of homosexuals and lesbians if they are so natural part of our modern lifestyle ?

Correction:

At least, I have often seen you giving references of Hindu scriptures which only show how superficial your knowledge about Hindu religion is.

************************************

It’s age of enlightened souls like you who are in league with all corrupt and immoral practices and all modern wonders(sorry! for U they are ancient)-homosexuals and lesbians.

*******************************************

There is lot of discussion on the subject , It is all un natural, and main cause is modern Society. The individual is psychchic case , any living organism has natural urge for reproduction, in human beings when they dont get opportunity to Copulate get into it, and it get into their mind for ever. It is all man made ,

indra sabha had no devis but had both gandharv & apsaras
may be devtas were bisexual or were liberal in approach
pl see vatsayan & kharuhraho for homo pictures
in mahabharat many were born in an unnatural manner
i am indifferent to the no of homosexuals /bisexuals & ors
so long i get my space i have no issues in giving them their space
keeping the issues under wraps is objectionable
bring culture is all bs
regarding barbs first they ignore us than they fight us then we win them over
so kuch to log kahenge

Sacchai ki khatir dunia main Gandhi ne bhi goli khai thi
Isa ko chadhaya suli per
Kitnon ne jan ganwai thi
Lo hum bhi kisi se kum to nahin tofan utha kar manenge
Hum log hain ise diwane
Dunia ko jhuka kar manenge
The whole idea was to start a lively debate
As usual we are skirting the main issue which is undue discrimination between male & female
With man on the top always
no pun intended pl
I have ignited the fire you may add fuel
Kisi ka ghar jale
Ki si ka dil
Apne pas to na ghar hai na dil
Rambharose hindu hotel

Dear Shiv,so far the issue of starting a debate is concerned,it is already in place.All thanks to internet,media,press and some NGO’s.
In my view,sexuality is an individual’s oreintation and sex is between the two and it is be indulged in total privacy.We are living in a soceity and have to live with it’s norms.In a civilized soceity, family is the main basis which comparise husband and wife and children.Only hetrosexual male and female can fit into this fabric of soceity.I don’t say that people with different sexual deviations were not there in the soceity.Such people were always part of the soceity but neither in the past nor in the future they can become the basis of the soceity.They are at liberty to excercise their sexuality but no need of glorification.
Everybody is free to express his opinion but no one should use harsh and demeaning words for others.
Thanks!!!

agreed
all i am saying is that due to change in life style a bohemian/unconventional has become convenient & may not be driven by a natural inclination & must be accepted/tolerated
so far society is concerned necessary sex education to children is a must if we don not want them to be victim of abuse or get wrong information leading to unnecessary complications physical or mental & develop phobias & biases to last for a life time
children are curious & body conscious
a few years back the son of a close relative hardly 5-6 years old wanted to take of the clothes of his one year old cousin just to see the physical difference
similarly another boy wanted to see her aunt while she was feeding her child
so we must provide them appropriate controlled information in the right manner at the right age

all i wanted was to know the views of the forum members on the issue particularly of women
not only on homosexuality but also whether it can be a by product of convenience as well

Well,it’s for us to decide whether we are going to have a society at par with normal tendencies or are we going to have society at par with wishes of sex starved idiots ?

If ”sexuality is an individual’s orientation” and if that sexuality is encircled in distorted perceptions why not keep things under cover when we treat even normal relations in this regard a private affair?

Why are we shedding tears over lack of promotion of what’s happening in world of lesbians? Aren’t we guilty of promoting abnormal relationship over healthy ones ?

I love the posts of Shiv and rarely I have commented in harsh way on his posts.But if harshness in words or tone is the need of the hour I will not refrain myself from doing so !!More so ,the way he is quoting in mindless manner Khujraho,Indra Sabha and Krisha Leelas etc. to justify his viewpoint or, for that matter, to convey the impression that such activities have enjoyed some sort of sanctity in Hindu society.And we are committing a huge blunder if we are not patronizing them now.

What Shiv has entered into is merely violation of the freedom of expression besides hurting the religious sentiments of Hindu community.Those who are hyper-conscious about ’harsh’ and ’demeaning’ words should also please take note of the fact that it’s a fit case of hurting the sentiments and also abuse of language - ’Krishna was a ladies man having a haram full of wives & umpteen girl friends(married & single) dancing at night’.The word harem is strictly applicable to Mahommedan or Muslim households only but my dear friend is not hesitant in associating it with Krishna.It’s ridiculous and abuse of language.I hope he does not come out with modern meaning of word ’Harem’ :-)

It’s hard to understand that what took place in Indra Sabha-the world of demigods,happenings in Khujraho era or Leelas of Krishna has any resemblance to lifestyle followed by distorted human beings.If the author thinks that such mindless reference grants some sort of legitimacy to unnatural phenomenons or they are reasons enough to give rise of homosexuals or lesbians with so-called space for their lifestyle then it’s absolutely an erroneous view.No doubt about it at all.

It’s really interesting that any talk of moral education or restoration of the principles of Sanatana Dharma is totally dismissed by the so-called modern Indians as an attempt to push the country towards stone age and the idea is treated as unprogressive rigidity.

On the other hand, it’s seen as some sort of brilliant mindset or progressive attitude to promote all things that should in first place should not exist at all and if they at all make their presence felt let them remain confined to corners of dark world alone.

What’s the point in taking about unusual patterns in glorious terms with quotes from Hindu world when powerful quotes from Hindu world in tune with right mindset and right context are dismissed.Only because they happen to store better ideals from Hindu world !!Former-the promotion of distortions-is progressiveness .Later–the promotion of higher beliefs- is simply backwardness or dullness of mind.That’s really great !!

the point sought to be conveyed has been missed totally
in a male dominate world marriage may not be an option for a career conscious girl
in such cases if she does wants to gratify her needs out side wedlock then what option she has but to turn lesbian
of course not all will do that i am also not asking them to do that
they may change their sex as well
another trigger for abuse
i can hear an ambulance approaching to take me to an asylum
it did happen in mumbai to inherit family property
but then suppressing normal desire may give rise to all kinds of complications
all i am saying is that a change in mindset is called for where by man can consider women as equal& give her enough space for career advancement
i retract the word harem if ranivas pleases some one so it be
what is there in a name
just a four letter word over which we have no choice but have to live with it all our lives

homosexuality has always been prevalent we simply do not want to acknowledge it
what is normal is a matter of numbers
tomorrow artificial womb & semen may be devised & sex itself may become abnormal

another mad thought
think i have gone crazy but what to do
can any one control his mind
khuda khair kare
ma gayatri pl give me wisdom
amen

i am no genius but socrates was killed because his ideas were against vested interests
so was chist
if thinking radically is sin that all labs should be closed
pl think what would have happened without Columbus?
at least ladies of the world are with me
if i can get some male support as well i am in majority so much for the power of numbers

@Shiv

”the point sought to be conveyed has been missed totally”

Shiv readers are not fools that they fail to understand the real motives of a writer !!It’s you who are unable to understand the consequences of having a society at par with your wishes.

I am sure if all starts giving practical shape to our so-called ”personal choices” there will be total breakdown.

I don’t think we are born to turn into lesbians or homosexuals !!

If you are so much interested in following an unnatural course of actions then go ahead and fulfill it .But just don’t try to act over smart and in process emerge as a complete hypocrite.

I mean stop endorsing your evil,unwanted,unnatural,perverted and fetish desires by quoting scriptures.It only shows that you are trying to sabotage the guilt looming large over your head.You want to be labeled as normal in the eyes of society even as you come to indulge in unnatural carnal pleasures.

That’s not tolerable.At least,I will protest in both right and wrong ways.If you are not following a right sent of standards , why do you expect others to be lenient with you ? Everything has a limit.And you have crossed all limits. It’s time for you to realize that.

Who told you that son of Lord Krishna had live in relationship? Just to stay at house don’t mean that it was sexual relation. You seem to be of pervert mind.By trying to showcase situation of woman, you are trying to divert them towards lesbianism which is wrong what if it is safe.

when 2 unmarried grown up /adult boy & girl live together in the girl’s bedroom without her family’s knowledge it can have only the obvious meaning
howsoever , inconvenient it may be

It can be thought only by dirty mind like you. Don’t blasphemy to Bhagwan. You seem to be other than hindu.

Thanks Jaywant for counteracting the views of Shiv.Shiv is a good guy but I don’t know what has made him enter into such a shit.Ironically, all his recent articles are filled with such crude references in articles that are filled with absurd sexual content.

U know if we are not going to counteract such pieces with iron hand,we will fail to generate right message.People deliberately give such wrong impressions because they know Hindus(sorry to use the word Hindu)are often the mute spectators to such distortions.

I am sure the moment they realize that there are some some souls to give them a tit for tat response they will dare not give such responses.

In that light,I find your refutation Jaywant an encouraging gesture.Keep it up.

You are right Arvind. No one will dare to write about Momedians or Christians, specially Momedians as its consequences have to be faced. But liberalism of Hindutva and Hindu has been taken granted as cowardness, not only by foreigners, not only by politicians, not only by seculars, not only by other religion followers, but by HINDUs themselves also and what a tregedy when the person having name of God- Shiv is writing such absurd things!

Jaywant

You sound so right ! Thanks for making a bold statement.

That’s why I have suggested Shiv that if he is so interested in writing shit he can go ahead with his writing instincts but just stop quoting Hindu scriptures.It’s very evident that he has no real knowledge of what’s there in Hindu literature.

Ironically, some are very interested in freedom of expression but are little bothered about misuse of freedom of expression.It has become a convenient weapon to pass stupid remarks on Hindu symbols.

when people have neither facts on their side nor law or logic they turn hysterical
violence is the hall mark of bullies & cowards(no difference between the two)
whatever i have quoted is all very well documented in public domain
honorable delhi high court has accepted that homosexuality is not a crime & government has decided not to appeal against their judgment
i am yet to come across any thing in hindu scriptures against it
i am not propagating it but have nothing against gays or lesbians


it has been prevalent form time immemorial & gays & lesbians are slowly gaining legal rights as well including marriage & inheritance
even live in partner is now entitled to maintainence & there is no discrimination between legitimate & illegitimate children legally
no debate can take place if the other side has closed mind so i am not going to respond to personal comments
does not bother me one bit as it shows the frustration of the other side
the fact remains that no petition from candle makers can prevent sun from shining
gandhiji was assassinated for his bold approach but untouchability is no more as wide spread as it was during his time
i was just not interested in responding but ultimately gave in
if silencing me can stop homosexuality i have no issues with dying

if out of 30 people who have read this post so far if only 2 are against my views i have made my point if numbers matter?
happy diwali to all

@ Shiv


Nobody has turned hysterical here..It’s U who are caught in a messy situation..I wonder who is a closed mind ?One who talks about ”facts” ,”logic” and law but is unable to view of others in right perspective,who talks about facts but has only this to say that it has ”homosexuality has always been prevalent”..See the logic..Anything that is always present is right...Prostitution is also present from time immemorial so should that be hailed as noble profession among the girls and it should be made mandatory for all the girls to turn into prostitutes ?

Quote a paragraph from a Hindu scripture that suggest that homosexuality is a normal phenomenon of Hindu society and on that account it should form part and parcel of the society.

Just mindless references from like Indra Sabha,Khujaraho and etc.are no substantial proof and also are not indicative of the fact that they are ”very well documented in public domain”.Is all that very well documented means that’s noble and worthwhile. Great Logic !! Logic indeed is by your side only.Only we are beating the bush !!

You are trying to give the impression that you are being tortured like Socrates and Gandhi.First rise above such ridiculous impression..They did not support such ”unnatural and immoral phenomenon ”.By supporting such views I am afraid you don’t fall in the league of great thinkers.Get above this illusion.

Okay.I too have nothing against lesbians or homosexuals but let not just go out of the way to shed tears from them.I also wish a dignified existence for them but I am not going to say alright working boys and working girls it’s time for U to turn into homosexuals and lesbians.

You say you are not propagating then why the heel you are suggesting that for ”career oriented” girls lesbianism is the only option.First look at double standards prevalent in your views.Just playing with words is not going to hide the reality that even while propagating it you want to convey just the opposite impression.

Regarding law on your side, just wait a petition in this regard has been accepted in SC.Whatever be the decision by Supreme court let me say that ”society has the right to consider the ethical and moral aspects in an individual’s life. Legality is one thing, but there is also something more in human life than legality like ethics and morality” .

”Also a form of behaviour by a miniscule section of society can be accepted as a ‘social norm’”

”They consider that the developed nations( read decriminalization of homosexuality) have done it, then why not we follow it. Yes, but India should also expect more broken families, single parents, orphaned children and a confused or perverted young generation as we see in the so-called developed nations.”

Lastly, Happy Deepavali to U Shiv and all other Instablogians.

Corrected Version:

@ Shiv


Nobody has turned hysterical here..It’s U who are caught in a messy situation..I wonder who is a closed mind ?One who talks about ”facts” ,”logic” and law but is unable to see view of others in right perspective,who talks about facts but has only this to say that ”homosexuality has always been prevalent”..See the logic..Anything that is always present is right...Prostitution is also present from time immemorial so should that be hailed as noble profession among the girls and it should be made mandatory for all the girls to turn into prostitutes ?

Quote a paragraph from a Hindu scripture that suggests that homosexuality is a normal phenomenon of Hindu society and on that account it should form part and parcel of the society.

Just mindless references from like Indra Sabha,Khujaraho and etc.are no substantial proof and also are not indicative of the fact that they are ”very well documented in public domain”.Is all that is very well documented means the act is noble and worthwhile. Great Logic !! Logic indeed is by your side only.Only we are beating the bush !!

You are trying to give the impression that you are being tortured like Socrates and Gandhi.First rise above such ridiculous impression..They did not support such ”unnatural and immoral phenomenon ”.By supporting such views I am afraid you don’t fall in the league of great thinkers.Get above this illusion.

Okay.I too have nothing against lesbians or homosexuals but let not just go out of the way to shed tears from them.I also wish a dignified existence for them but I am not going to say alright working boys and working girls it’s time for U to turn into homosexuals and lesbians.

You say you are not propagating then why the heel you are suggesting that for ”career oriented” girls lesbianism is the only option.First look at double standards prevalent in your views.Just playing with words is not going to hide the reality that even while propagating it you want to convey just the opposite impression.

Regarding law on your side,just wait a petition in this regard has been accepted in SC.Whatever be the decision by Supreme court let me say that ”society has the right to consider the ethical and moral aspects in an individual’s life. Legality is one thing, but there is also something more in human life than legality like ethics and morality” .

”Also a form of behaviour by a miniscule section of society can be accepted as a ‘social norm’”

”They consider that the developed nations( read decriminalization of homosexuality) have done it, then why not we follow it. Yes, but India should also expect more broken families, single parents, orphaned children and a confused or perverted young generation as we see in the so-called developed nations.”

Lastly, Happy Deepavali to U Shiv and all other Instablogians.

Well said Arvind.

Thanks a lot Jaywant...And also lots of good wishes on Deepavali..

sati, child marriage , parda were all holy cows not very long ago
no more
birth control & artificial organ planting are also unnatural
so should there be no science?
religion is a means to discover our true self & is constantly evolving
change is a way of life
else religion will become extinct
religion is for society not other way round
50 years back people crossing seas were disowned no more in the age of globalization
lord ram ate the half eaten fruits of shabri the untouchabale
liberated ahilya a lady under a curse for having had an affair due to deceit by indra the king of gods
made friends with kevat & nishad all low caste people
bramhaji lusted after his daughter saraswati & married her
this is why apart from pushkar he has no temple
still he remains tridev the originator of universe
viswamitra the great sage fell for menka a courtesean of indra
lost all his powers & had to againdo tapas austerities for thousands of years
even sage narad was once taught a lesson by lord vishnu when he fell for a princes when lord vishnu cast a spell on him
hindu mythology tells us what happens when we do not follow our true nature
dharma no one is immune not even god from the law of karma

Change is a way of life ? What’s so new about this concept ? Every Hindu knows that.I hope it does not mean that in name of change we get used to all absurd perceptions and beliefs.

***************************************
Ch 2 Verse 45 of Sri Bhagvad Geeta :

traigunya-vishaya veda / nistraigunyo bhavarjuna

nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho / niryoga-kshema atmavan

-The Vedas mainly deal with the subject of the three modes of material nature. Rise above these modes, O Arjuna. Be transcendental to all of them. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the Self.

************************************

Change is the law of universe with everything falling in the real of three changing Gunas Sattva ,Rajas and Tamas.

Is that clear to you Mr Shiv ?

It’s a very basic and integral feature of Hinduism hammered on the consciousness of Hindus since TIME IMMEMORIAL !! No need to remind us about that.

all i am saying is let us not bring religion & culture between how society conducts it self
sun shines whether we command it to do so or not to do so
every religion which fails to adopt to change stagnates & decays
hinduism has survived the test of time because it is liberal , progressive & forward looking
buddhism despite royal patronage died a slow death
despite jajiya hinduism survived

there was this hippy culture in 60s people got fed up with it & it died of its own
the internet is full of pornography yet we are not perverted souls
mind can discriminate between good or bad over the course of time
if we take care of our own selves the world will be a better place
aap bhala so jag bhala

religion is for life , life is not for religion
for me it is no more than a cloth
i might have been born to a muslim or christian mother
religion is like food whose purpose is nourishment
vitamins can be taken in any form suitable for body
mother may be called by any other name but remains the same person
when people have no issue or argument they bring religion & say that it is being insulted or the morals are being violated or culture is being polluted
just as politicians bring public interest to defend any action
wearing sacred thread & observing its sanctity was the hall mark of any high caste hindu once upon a time
no more